i am a evangelical christian

General discussions
Ygern
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 3003
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Cork
Contact:

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Ygern » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:06 pm

Sweetie, apologetics is not evidence. It is wishful thinking.
Try again.
The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time ~ Lawrence Krauss
Cork Skeptics
Adonai88
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:45 pm

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Adonai88 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Neil wrote: The species line here is arbitrary. If you accept microevolution, you must accept macroevolution. One is simply an extension of the other. It's completely illogical to accept that mutations can occur, but not to accept that they can eventually lead to speciation.
There are things, i cannot explain better, than certain homepages, so, please forgive me, if i do not answer with my words, but link to a homepage :

http://hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/DNA.html

Micro and Macro Evolution

DNA is very important because it finally provides us with a very precise definition of micro and macro evolution. Macro evolution can only be defined as an organism acquiring, through mutation, a completely new gene which was not present in any of that organisms ancestors. If a new phenotype (physical structure) is caused by a gene which was present but recessive in any of the parent organisms, then that must be micro evolution.

A good example of micro evolution would be if our little tribe of people who all had brown eyes but had the "hidden" trait for blue eyes caused by a "recessive" gene, went off to some isolated area and lived out of touch with any other people. Over a period of generations, due to death, disease, or what ever, we bred out all of the genes for brown eyes so that we only had the genes for blue eyes and everyone now has only blue eyes. This can only be defined as micro evolution because the gene for blue eyes was already present in the parent organisms. Micro evolution works fine with both creation and evolution models. The debate is about macro evolution and not micro evolution.

For macro evolution to occur, our tribe would have to have never had or had reproductive contact with people who had the gene for blue eyes and, through mutation of the gene for brown eyes, we acquire a gene for blue eyes. We don't have any biological proof of this having ever occurred and this is what the debate is about.

Over the decades that I have considered the creation/evolution debate, I have asked numerous biologists if they have ever known of even one such gene mutation that was 100% positive in nature (meaning that there were no negative side effects such as having the genes for eyes, ears, fingers, toes, and etc.) None of us have ever heard of such a new gene. The best evolutionists can do is the gene for sickle-cell anemia and they hang onto this as an example of positive mutation for proof of evolution. This is in spite of the fact that 25% of the recipients for this mutation (the ones who receive the gene from both parents) are killed by the disorder it causes. Evolutionists claim this as a positive trait because the people who receive the gene from just one parent have an increased resistance to malaria. They forget to tell you that only 50% of the offspring receive the resistance while 50% are either killed by the gene or don't receive the resistance. I don't know of anyone who thinks this is such a good gene that everyone should have it like the genes for eyes, ears, or fingers. If this is such a great mutation, why do we have a national organization to help people who have it?
JH
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by JH » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Adonai88 wrote:There are three major areas that have been posited to provide evidence for the existence of God. Thomas Aquinas, argued in favor of the existence of God on the basis of fundamental aspects of the universe such as causality and change.
Most of the stuff below liberally copied from Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinquae_viae

St. Thomas Aquinas (theologian) posited 'the five ways', which are; the argument of the unmoved mover, the argument of the first cause, the argument from contingency, the argument from degree and the teleological argument.

Richard Dawkins responded in 'The God Delusion'. The first three arguments are essentially the same, and rely upon the idea of a regress to which God is unjustifiably immune. The fourth argument is applicable to a whole lot of other concepts. The fifth argument claims the necessity of a designer, considering that biological life looks somewhat designed, whereas evolution by means of natural selection explains its complexity and diversity.
Adonai88 wrote:William Paley argued that the hand of God is evident in the apparent design of the universe and living beings.
See Dawkins' fifth rebuttal above.
Adonai88 wrote:The third line of evidence argues that God makes Himself evident in personal transcendent experiences of people.
Chemical and hormonal reactions in an individual's brain, hallucinations, or mental illness (e.g. hearing voices, seeing spirits) do not constitute 'evidence of god'
Adonai88 wrote:Of these three lines of evidence, science has eliminated none
Done.
JH
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by JH » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:28 pm

There's an awful lot of copy/pasting going on here. Is this thread turning into the Internet? - I hope we have enough disk space. :lol:
Adonai88
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:45 pm

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Adonai88 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:31 pm

Ygern wrote:Sweetie, apologetics is not evidence. It is wishful thinking.
Try again.
if you are a woman, thanks for the sweetie. I really am.... :wink:

well , in my words, there are 3 main aspects, which do evidence the existence of a creator :

- the universe and all creation

0 x 0 = 1 makes no sense, irrational, not logic
God through his power = created everything


- the bible - God revealed himself through the ages in a progressive manner to mankind

- testimonies of people who had transcedental experiences with God. i met many in my journey as believer.

for me, these are the 3 main aspects which evidence the existence of God.
Neil
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:27 am
Location: Dublin

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Neil » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:37 pm

Adonai,

The reason we're having trouble accepting your arguments is that they're simply not convincing. The sources you cite have an obvious agenda. "Creation science" is not science. It starts out with an assumption that there is a god, and then goes about trying to find evidence to support it, whilst discarding anything which clearly doesn't.

That is precisely the opposite of the scientific method. What scientists do, when they think they've got a good hypothesis, is test it rigorously, actively seeking information which could disprove it. When their hypothesis holds up against such pressure, they consider their argument to be sound.

The fact of the matter is that there is overwhelming evidence against creationism, and overwhelming evidence in support of evolution (both micro and macro).

If you want to balance that, then please supply some evidence in favour of your belief, or else admit that you can't.
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it."
- Terry Pratchett
Hemingway
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:42 pm

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Hemingway » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:42 pm

Adonai88 just make note of the sites you are cutting and pasting from "Revolution Against Evolution", "Godandscience.org", "Rational Perspectives - promoting philosophical theism".

These are all sites compiled by people with agendas to further the cause of creationism and ID. Does that not fly any kind of a red flag for you? Have you any concept of how these people are regarded within the scientific community?

You are using a common tactic utilised by ID proponents attacking evolution as a form of diverting attention to the fact that you have not presented evidence for the creator you believe exists.

In any case, I agree with Nozz. Until you can show any kind of evidence for a creator we are just going around in circles here. It took me 25 minutes to answer your last post and unless I get at least a solid effort to present some evidence from you as to why you "believe" I really cannot be bothered (no matter how much I want to respond to some of the weak points in your last post) to spend the time putting my answer together.

Will you make an honest effort to make your case for the creator supported by some evidence? I am convertable! Trust me I am...... but I need a reason to convert. I need proof.... evidence. The door is open... save my soul....
Dont try to fix me, I'm not broken
Neil
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:27 am
Location: Dublin

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Neil » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:45 pm

Adonai88 wrote:0 x 0 = 1 makes no sense, irrational, not logic
God through his power = created everything
That's not an explanation. You're just giving your lack of knowledge the name "God". What rational people say is "We don't yet know what caused the universe."

(Also, I wasn't aware that to get an effect you had to multiply a cause by itself... but whatever).
- the bible - God revealed himself through the ages in a progressive manner to mankind
Using the Bible as evidence is circular reasoning.
"The Bible is true, because it's the word of god. It says so in the Bible."
"- testimonies of people who had transcedental experiences with God. i met many in my journey as believer. "
That doesn't even qualify as anecdotal evidence, let alone anything defensible.
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it."
- Terry Pratchett
Hobbesian World View
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:42 pm

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Hobbesian World View » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:51 pm

adonai88 wrote:i am not here to prove anything, but to testify my faith.
So far, most of your posts consist of demands that we prove evolution is true.

Im not sure why you would come on an atheist site looking for an arguement. Do you really believe that some here will be converted? Then you dont understand irish atheism. Most of us here are already converted. To atheism, that is. Were not going to un-learn the information that made us atheists.

I actually feel sorry for you. Ive noticed in churches there are two types of people. 90% of the church are people who sincerely believe what theyre being told by the leaders. And then theres the church leaders, who know its all nonsense, but keep up the act because its very profitable for them, and they get a nice job that gives them power and authority over a congregation of people.

I feel sorry for the suckers who are tricked into giving their time, money and effort for nothing in return, other than a bogus promise of another life after they die.
Adonai88
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:45 pm

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Adonai88 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:53 pm

Hemingway wrote:
Will you make an honest effort to make your case for the creator supported by some evidence? I am convertable! Trust me I am...... but I need a reason to convert. I need proof.... evidence. The door is open... save my soul....
Hemingway.

I am not here to try to convert you. That's something, you must do by your own, if you wish so. I am presenting the evidence ( and, despite you and others here assert it is not, in my opinion it IS compelling and convincing evidence ) that has convinced ME. Its entirely upon you to decide, if its worth to be considered, or not. Be assured that i have absolutely no interest NOT to be honest..... otherwise, my beeing here would really be senseless.
Post Reply